tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6693485835770444406.post7431037578693047532..comments2023-06-21T10:32:56.233-05:00Comments on Spurgeon's Cigar: On the Christian's Relationship with the StateHal Brunsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02060487022991827610noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6693485835770444406.post-79520862268583624672008-12-02T17:26:00.000-06:002008-12-02T17:26:00.000-06:00William F. Buckley? I doubt you could find a more ...William F. Buckley? I doubt you could find a more appropriate champion. I am reminded of the debate in which he threatened to punch Noam Chomsky in his "" face. So was it all that "certain unalienable duty to the State, including the duty to submit to its authority" that put Jesus on a cross? Was it that same sense of duty that put the heads of Paul and John the Baptist under an ax? I wonder if Hippie Fringehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03497379570488228589noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6693485835770444406.post-15410313365498262262008-12-02T16:45:00.000-06:002008-12-02T16:45:00.000-06:00You wrote that Paul was NOT telling Christians to ...You wrote that Paul was NOT telling Christians to submit to evil powers.<BR/><BR/>You also asked the question, how can verses three and four of Romans 13 be applied to Rome. I submit, that it can be applied to Rome based on the foundation laid in verses one and two: namely, all governments are ordained by God.<BR/><BR/>When asked to name a non-evil government, you named only the kingdom of ChristShanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02367673477517144570noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6693485835770444406.post-20762561304445552342008-12-02T14:20:00.000-06:002008-12-02T14:20:00.000-06:00Shane,I really doubt that Rahab lied because her g...Shane,<BR/><BR/>I really doubt that Rahab lied because her government was asking her to violate God's law. I believe she lied in faith (see Hebrews 11) because somehow (mystically) she had received faith to see something that others could not see. It was irrational (or <B><I>supra</I></B>rational) for her to disobey her government. It could have cost her life.<BR/><BR/>Also, it seems that withThe Militant Pacifisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13114020353418814651noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6693485835770444406.post-57794773855608182562008-12-02T10:50:00.000-06:002008-12-02T10:50:00.000-06:00Shane,I really doubt that Rahab lied because her g...Shane,<BR/><BR/>I really doubt that Rahab lied because her government was asking her to violate God's law. I believe she lied in faith (see Hebrews 11) because somehow (mystically) she had received faith to see something that others could not see. It was irrational (or <I>supra</I>rational) for her to disobey her government. It could have cost her life.<BR/><BR/>Also, it seems that with the The Militant Pacifisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13114020353418814651noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6693485835770444406.post-1482696249577376222008-12-01T21:18:00.000-06:002008-12-01T21:18:00.000-06:00MP: I must respectfully disagree.No where does the...MP: I must respectfully disagree.<BR/><BR/>No where does the Bible teach disobedience to evil governments. The Bible in several places teaches disobedience to particular evil acts done or required by government.<BR/><BR/>Example: Daniel submitted to his government except insofar as it required him to violate God's law. When the government wasn't requiring him to violate God's law, Daniel freely Shanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02367673477517144570noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6693485835770444406.post-14882399417468272762008-12-01T16:48:00.000-06:002008-12-01T16:48:00.000-06:00Some thoughts on Romans 13:3-4When Paul requires s...<B>Some thoughts on Romans 13:3-4</B><BR/><BR/>When Paul requires submission to powers in Romans 13, can he possibly be requiring Christians to submit to evil powers?<BR/><BR/><B><I>God forbid!</I></B> <BR/><BR/>One may react and say, “well, when Paul wrote to the Romans, they were living under an oppressive government, so he’s teaching that Christians must be submissive to any government – good The Militant Pacifisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13114020353418814651noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6693485835770444406.post-25586242154737726122008-12-01T09:39:00.000-06:002008-12-01T09:39:00.000-06:00I for one Shane, (beside you mom) also read this B...I for one Shane, (beside you mom) also read this Blog, as well as many others. (I notice over 5,000 hits) I find that people weather Christian or not, tend to let their hair down, so to speak when facial expression are non-existent. Please allow me to comment on some of what I have read. <BR/>Firstly, Shane mentioned that his writing was somewhat “pours”, mine I am afraid is more “watch out theDougy611https://www.blogger.com/profile/02425052995544773312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6693485835770444406.post-305415305695089092008-11-30T17:59:00.000-06:002008-11-30T17:59:00.000-06:00Shane,Thanks for the confidence in a Romans 13 exp...Shane,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for the confidence in a Romans 13 exposition, but I can't do that at this time; I have too many other pressing documents, and I would't want to do a second-rate job; if I finish my book on "The Myth of America," I will probably have a section on Romans 13 in a chapter on the 2A or the "right" to revolt.Hal Brunsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10628713240466001478noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6693485835770444406.post-38359735773313202442008-11-29T19:49:00.000-06:002008-11-29T19:49:00.000-06:00Romans 13 is tough for me.A basic tenet of documen...Romans 13 is tough for me.<BR/><BR/>A basic tenet of document interpretation is to give meaning and effect to each word used, assuming it was purposefully used.<BR/><BR/>Verses 1 and 2 make plain that each government is ordained by God, and to disobey government is to disobey God (of course, this is an 8 corners document and not 4, as we read not only romans 13 but all the Bible---therefore, we Shanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02367673477517144570noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6693485835770444406.post-28209393279518397372008-11-29T18:58:00.000-06:002008-11-29T18:58:00.000-06:00You're exactly right about Paul's and Peter's suff...You're exactly right about Paul's and Peter's suffrage under evil kings; in fact I included that point in my original post but deleted it because the historical reality of Paul's situation makes his language even more mystifying. If, as you say, Paul is acknowledging evil Rome, then his words are either contradictory to his own historical circumstances, or they are ironically and perhaps Hal Brunsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10628713240466001478noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6693485835770444406.post-25444183289557283782008-11-29T18:51:00.000-06:002008-11-29T18:51:00.000-06:00I just went back and reread my section on duties o...I just went back and reread my section on duties owed to the State. There should be some qualifiers there (but I did say up front it was porous writing!), but I think the discussion of Daniel in another section at least tangentially addresses those: when governments do us evil we not only have the right but the responsibility to disobey.<BR/><BR/>Revolting, as I alluded to in my previous comment,Shanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02367673477517144570noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6693485835770444406.post-1930639633874396772008-11-29T18:42:00.000-06:002008-11-29T18:42:00.000-06:00Thanks Hal.With regard to the type of State to whi...Thanks Hal.<BR/><BR/>With regard to the type of State to which a Christian must be obedient, it strikes me that the state at issue in Paul's and Peter's writing is ruled by an inherently evil government, one that was officially pagan, and killed Christ as an official action. In fact, that government sat in Rome, where Paul was writing. <BR/><BR/>Nero, after all, was Caesar at the time Romans was Shanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02367673477517144570noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6693485835770444406.post-34246020768768240402008-11-29T11:05:00.000-06:002008-11-29T11:05:00.000-06:00Your recent postings confirm why I wanted you as a...Your recent postings confirm why I wanted you as a poster to this blog: excellent posts. Trey has his work cut out for him in this argument.<BR/><BR/>With regard to your point that "God has required of His people that they be obedient to the State," followed by a citation of Romans 13, I would encourage you to look at that passage a little more carefully, especially verses 3-4. Paul's mandate to Hal Brunsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10628713240466001478noreply@blogger.com